The Caravan Owners Club

[bobwhite]

There has been considerable coverage on the 'old' forum regarding the restrictions imposed on towing of a trailer in excess of 2300mm with vehicles of less than 3500kg. Clearly, to Hobby owners, these restrictions seem crass at the least, and totally superfluous at best. Modern 4 x 4 beasts are more than capable of towing trailers of this size and weight, if this be the perceived problem. Stability is no longer a problem with up-to-date vehicle and trailer suspension improvements made over recent years. The suggestion that such combinations would be more of a danger to other road-users than say, a 3.5 ton flat-back as a tow vehicle is preposterous.

So, what's to be done. In a democracy, only the combined voice of the people will be heard. As mentioned in previous postings, a concerted appeal to our local MPs will at least bring the issue into the public domain. To this end, I would urge all members to lobby their MP to obtain an explanation from the D.O.T. as to the point of this legislation. You may be interested in the following web-site which will not only give you the name and political allegience of your local MP, but will also give you an e-mail access.

www.locata.co.uk/commons

Come on - lets get things moving!!!

Regards to all

[harrycee]

Well played Bob.
We could also create a standard letter which could be posted on here so that anyone could print it off, sign it, and send it to their MP/EMP
This will need lots of clout so let's get clouting.

Proud Hobby Owner

[jackie]

[:(!]Hi Bob,just like to tell you that we have just e-mailed our local MP to try and get her help,I've explained the situation and hope for a reply soon.Thanks very much and we will keep you informed,what Harry was saying was a brilliant idea aswell,I think you two have a better way of wording things and you both can make it sound much more professional,well done you two and while I'm on I'll give Ed a big praise for his great work on this site, bye for now Jackie

[John_C]

Yes I agree[:D][:D]...lets clout them hard [}:)]...This stupid UK law needs a clout into this century.

Look forward to printing off a letter....hurry up and write it you Guy's [:p]


John & Sylvia, Sunny Hayling Island
Hobby TBD???
Hyundia Santa fe TDi 4x4 (a nice little mover/tower)

[Doc]

Just managed to get myself on the New Forum so I'll reproduce here, what I put on the old one.

"In an attempt to throw some light on this confusion, I have checked the legalities with someone in the industry who knows! To check, go to the website of the National Trailer and Towing Association at www.ntta.co.uk

To tow a 'van of 2.5m width, you must have a towing vehicle in excess of 3500kg Gross Vehicle Weight, GVW, or Maximum Allowable Mass, MAM, as it's now called.

The kerb weight will be less than this, and the towing vehicle does NOT have to be loaded to above 3500kg to be able to tow a 2.5m wide 'van; it just has to have the capability of being loaded to a gross weight in excess of 3500kg.
To be strictly legal, the MAM should be 3501kgs and above! However, given the Police's normal attitude to such problems, I shouldn't think they'd worry about 1kg.

There are some Transits, Iveco Dailys and Merc Sprinters etc. which will do, but if their GVW or MAM is only 3.5tonnes they actually miss it by 1kg!!

I'll repeat the main problem; it's not getting hauled over by Police (pretty rare it would appear), but loss of insurance cover in an accident and making yourself liable to prosecution AND liable to any third party damages!!

You really don't want to do this."

As to convincing MP's, or anyone else, that the rules on 2.5m 'vans should be changed, I think that is a vain hope. Not least because the UK industry would lobby against it, to prevent a further influx of continental 'vans.


Cheers, Doc

[PARKER]

Hello ,I am new to the site and have what looks to be an old question about towing a 650 in this country with a ford explorer 4 x 4.
I phoned my car insurance company and told them about the english law and they told me that it was up to them to decide wether the car was capable of towing such a vehicle.
They said that the 650 hobby was legal to tow on english roads with my car & added that they have looked into it and are happy that they are right.
The best and most confusing part of my story is that the telephone call was taped for there records and it was typed out on there computer as we spoke.
The sales lady spoke to her manager after i asked here for a third time about the law (on tape & typed) and came back with yes it is legal.
I phoned back 3 hours later and got a second sales girl and asked her to review my policy and she comfirmed that i had text on my policy reading,
i quote.Mr Parker has informed us that he intends to tow a hobby 650 kfu
german spec caravan and that the width, height, weight & length are larger than that of a british caravan ,the width being 2.5mtr.
We are satified that mr parkers ford explorer is capable of towing the said caravan and in no way is he breaking the law.
Further to this note she added that ,if it was illegal they would not insure it
and as they have insured my car to pull the caravan they would be liable
so,What do you all make of this,do i go and buy a wide hobby and show the police my insurance cert if i get pulled up ,It would appear that i would be insured and legal. HELP
MICHAEL

[bobwhite]

Hi Michael
We will soon have enough material on this subject to compile a short encyclopedia.
Reading between the lines, do I gather that your insurers are not an English company?
The question really lends itself to 2 answers.
1) Insurance when towing involves two aspects, insurance of the 'van, and insurance of the towing vehicle. There is no requirement in this country for compulsory insurance of a caravan being towed on public roads. The loss/damage of the van is entirely the owners responsibility. There is however a legal requirement for insurance on a motor vehicle to a minimum criteria to provide cover for loss or damage to third parties. If your insurer is willing to provide such cover, even though you are at the time, committing an offence, that is presumably entirely their prerogative.
2) If your insurers think that towing a trailer in excess of 7' 6" with anything other than a vehicle with a gross weight of 3.5 tons is legal in this county, then they are mistaken.
That's the simple truth of it.
Sorry
Best wishes
Bob

[PARKER]

Hi Bob, Thanks for the reply,My insurance company is british and a very well known one.
I will tell you what they are called as soon as i receive my van and if there is any come back about being illegal they have told me that they will be held responsable..
My Ford Explorer has a weight of 2514 kg and a payload of 800 kg,so i am happy that i will be safe,I have towed twin axles vans the same weight for 6 years now and the fact that the hobby is 9" wider is ,well....LAW & A*SE go together.
So i am happy .my car insurance and van insurance are happy and its in writing.
On another point ,is the hobby range of caravans CE marked,because if they are not they should not be imported ,if they are then the law states that the item CE marked should be fit for purpose as a stand alone vehicle and supersedes any other law.
If i get stopped by the law what can they do ,i cant find any info on fines or punishment of any kind.
Is there anything i should know about buying a 650 KFU ,The brocher is not that detailed,do i have to fill the onboard water tank with a hose pipe,does the gas blown heating also have a 240vac option.
All i can gather so far is that the worktops are very thin and its too wide to tow!
Last question now, is £11500 a good deal for a brand new 650 KFU,no trade-in and cash?
Thankyou,michael

[mike]

Hi Everyone,

Hi Parker

How good it is to hear of your insurance company and their approach to towing larger caravans. If you would like to ask them to send us some details and providing members agree, we will put their details on the site for the good n benefit of members and their figures too

Regards

Ed

[PARKER]

Morning,I will send info and a copy of my insurance certificate to the club.
I am waiting to sell my swift 560 which is up for sale on thursday,then i am off on a german dream,ye ha.
michael

[sdawson1]

I phoned up DoT after finding out through looking in my Hobby literature that all other countires in the EU have a 2.5m width towing limit other than the UK and asked the lilelihood of them getting the law changed. Seems they and the government don't want to fall in line with other EU countires on this matter.
We need to petition, lobby as much as possible.
They even said that Tourists bringing thier vans to the UK and towing with a normal vehicle are towing illegally as well.

[Doc]

Hi Michael et al.,

Whilst the statements of your Insurance Co. may seem encouraging, in insuring your tow car for towing a 2.5m 'van, I would be very sceptical at the outcome in any accident/prosecution, whatever they say, in writing, or otherwise.

I certainly wouldn't go ahead and buy an over-wide 'van on the basis of their erroneous 'reading' of law. I suspect that if you read the 'small print' very carefully, there is a get-out clause to the effect that if the cover is found to be illegal, it is null and void; or something similar.

What they are proposing to do, written, recorded or whatever is insure you, or condone you breaking the law, and I can't think that any insurance Co. can do that. Also you will still be liable to prosecution, certainly if an accident is involved.

Personally, I would not take the 'word' of the Insurance Co. without having the whole legality of it checked independantly by a lawyer, AA or RAC, Which? etc etc.

This may seem very discouraging of me, but I don't think you want to pay ~£11000 to find, too late, that their insurance provision is invalid.

Take care out there, Doc.

[lizzie2911]

Hi parker

Who was your insurer, I am trying to find someone to insure a hobby 700 smf or was it just car insurance. On this subject and again I am just finding out by chatting that if your outfit is not legal and you have an accident then it indemnifes your insurance to become third party. So watch out and I would welcome comments if I am wrong.

[lizzie2911]

Hi Ed

Did Michael send his insurance details, I too would like a german dream in the way of 700smf just need someone to insure me. i am new on the sight and fumbling a bit but empathise with the concerns and eager to own a hobby.

Lizzie

[wrangler]

We were considering buying a Hobby 650 but JIT we found out about the towing width restriction.

I know that there is a lot of confusion about what is and isn't legal to tow and with what vehicle. Well, I have carried out extensive research, including consulting a barrister colleague of mine.

I can say categorically that if your van is more than 2.3 metres wide then it is ILLEGAL to tow it on a Public Highway in the UK with any vehicle of less than 3500 Kgs Gross Vehicle Weight. In practice this means that you have to use a large commercial van such as ther larger transits, LWB Merc Sprinter, etc. Normal vehicles including e.g. pick-ups (Warrior / Navara / Hi-Lux, etc) , Land Rover Defender / disco / Range Rover, Trooper, Shogun, Landcruiser, Pajero, etc CANNOT LEGALLY TOW A 2.5m Van on any UK road.

The police can, and do conduct checks on caravans for overloading and oversizing. If you were to be caught by one of these checks or were to be involved in an accident (whether your fault or not) then you can be prevented from continuing your journey and your rig impounded as well as being prosecuted for Dangerous Driving and not having a Roadworthy Vehicle. Does anyone want to risk this? I wouldn't!

Now, Insurance.

Most insurance companies do not have a clue about this and will tell you any old garbage. Basically it boils down to the fact that they cannot insure you against an illegal act. This is what my barrister colleague told me and which I have also posted on other forums...

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OK, I had occasion to chat with a barrister colleague today and I asked her about this insurance scenario.

She gave me the following info:

1. The governing legislation is the Insurance Companies Act 1982 and as amended.

2. Insurance companies in general are banned by law from insuring for risks arising from illegal acts on the part of the policyholder.

3. This is the interesting bit - insurance companies do not have to know, and they are not presumed to know every clause of every piece of UK legislation; after all, even the Government does not know all of it's own legislation!

There are certain 'obvious' areas where the insurer would be expected to have knowledge of the law; e.g. any insurer would be expected to turn down any request to insure a person against the consequences of that person carrying out murder. These are apparently termed 'Obvious Illegalities'!

However, Insurance companies are allowed take the word of their customer (the policyholder) as to the legality or otherwise of any item or event they are asked to cover where the law is more obscure. My barrister colleague was fairly sure that the towing regulations would fall into this area. The insurer would then be allowed to deny cover at any later date if illegality is subsequently discovered.

What this means in practice is that you, as the policyholder say to your insurer 'I want to tow an 8-foot wide caravan', the insurer is within it's rights to asume that you know this is a legal caravan so they say 'OK, no problem' They can even put confirmation of cover in writing, on a gold brick if you like. A while later you have an accident and the insurance investigator measures your van; he finds it to be of an illegal width and the insurance company says to you 'You did not disclose the material fact that your caravan was of an illegal size therefore we withdraw all cover' So you, the policyholder are deemed to have broken your contract by way of 'Incomplete Disclosure'. You can try taking 'em to court but my Barrister says that you will get precisely nowhere - you are at fault automatically because for a private individual 'ignorance of the law is no defence' so you should not have tried to insure an illegally sized caravan in the first place!

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That should remove all doubt from peoples minds.