The Caravan Owners Club

[Doc]

I have come across a company that specialises in up-rating the specifications of vehicles, including the GVW to above 3500kgs.

They certainly will up-rate most motorhomes, which often have woefully small load allowances, and I've asked for a list of 'non-commercial' (or van like) type vehicles which they can upgrade and whether s/h ones can also be done.

I'll report back here when I know more. . . . . . and don't ask why I'm doing this just yet, please!!!

[beejay]

While it MAY be possible to uprate a "normal" vehicle under 3500kg G.V.W to a higher capacity it will take it into the commercial vehicle category requiring a tachometer to be fitted (although this does not have be used for private use) and an L.G.V. licence will be necessary. In most cases the limiting factor could be the chassis and, uprating that, if possible, will be expensive. The only conversion that springs to mind is an extra axle on a Land Rover!!!! The reason there is no easy way is because a commercial operator, once crossing the 3500kg G.V.W. barrier, will go for a much higher capacity to utilise the licensing and tacho requirements to the full. Therefore vehicle manufacturers go from under 3500 to 6000kg or more up to the 7500kg limit for that licence class with nothing in between. In any event they are all COMMERCIAL vehicles and hardly suitable for everyday use. Finally, even if you can uprate, the addition of the caravan will probably exceed the maximum TRAIN weight as all the capacity of the towing vehicle will have disappeared in the uprating. Any vehicle over 3500kg towing a trailer will require the driver to hold an appropriate L.G.V licence even for private use. This will be a C + E if the trailer weighs more than 750kg (all Hobbys). So if you don't hold that licence it means 2 tests ( plus medicals over 45 years of age) There ain't no easy way, are you sure you want that extra 200mm?

[Doc]

Right beejay, forgive me if I correct some misunderstandings about the licence requirements etc, pertaining to vehicles over 3500kgs.

I've checked with the guy who helped edit the 'Essential Towing Handbook' by the Police Foundation and post his comments as follows;

'beejay' is getting confused by categories C, and C1, and their towing sections C+E, and C1+E.
C and C+E, is for driving LGVs over 3500kg, but more importantly also over 7500kg.

You do not need a C+E licence, as the next category up from a car licence is C1, which enables you, and I, to drive a LGV with a GVW from 3500 to 7500 kg, and then C1+E, which allows us to tow a trailer over 750kg up to a GTW of 8250kg.

All without taking a test unless the person driving passed the car test after 01/01/1997, when he cannot drive a vehicle with a gross weight over 3500kg unless taking and passing a C1 driving test first, then taking and passing the C1+E towing test.

The interesting thing then is, that passing the C1+E test enables them to drive a combination up to 12000kg!

We have what is known as "Grandfathers Rights" and we keep all the categories issued with a category B licence including C1 and C1+E as we passed our tests before 1997.

The precise designation of licence categories can be found here.http://www.dvla.gov.uk/drivers/vehicle_cat_desc.htm#Medium%20Sized%20Vehicles

However, beejay you are correct about the 'commercial' uprating being much higher

as the users are carrying goods and want the highest payload.

To have a vehicle uprated to enable you to tow over 2.3m wide means that just 1kg would be sufficient to put you over the 3500kg limit, which is all you need.

The gross train weight would not be a problem as you are only using 1kg of it. More likely, the problem would be the GTW of the vehicle in the first place. A good look at all vehicle specs would be needed to find the most suitable base unit.

If you used a motor home you do not require a tachograph in it as it is not plated as a goods vehicle, being plated instead as a passenger carrying vehicle.

If you used a pick up truck then it would need a tachograph fitting, but if you used the vehicle privately you would not need to use it.
Towing for hire or reward when using a pick up would mean the use of the tachograph.

However,

'beejay' is wrong about a Land Rover needing an extra axle.
The Defender, and some Discovery models, can be uprated to 4000kg without the need for an extra axle.

Tony Maris's Defender is an uprated one to 4000kg and I can assure you only has 2 axles. The six wheelers were built as a special order for fire fighting vehicles and similar military needs.

Hope you don't mind my dispelling some of these misunderstandings, beejay.

It's all done 'in the best possible taste', as the great K.E used to say.

Sorry Bob, my pal didn't mention uprating RangeRovers, just Defenders and Disco's. I'll check back with him to see if he knows about them.

[Hobbynut]

As an LGV Driving Instructor for the M.O.D, I have a great interest in this area and I have looked at the uprating problem before and when I contacted Land Rover about uprating a Range Rover they said they had no "Official" after market upgrade available. Us older people do not have to worry about needing a C1 licence as we were all given them along with our original driving licences. As Doc says its the younger element who got their licence for a car after the 1st january 1997. Us oldies should also have been given category D1 which allows us to drive a large minibus. So you could buy a new Ford Transit 17 seater Minibus which has MAM ( Gross Vehicle Weight ) of around 4.2 tons. If you don't want to spend twenty odd grand buying one then you could always do what I do and hire one. Admittedly I only move my van twice a year as I site it during the summer and maybe renting one for a fortnights holiday would be rather expensive.
Hobbynut

[beejay]

Sorry . I stand corrected I did miss the 1 from C1 licences. I was not aware that a 4000 kg version of the Land Rover existed but at what cost? However, is some years since I was involved in commercial chassis conversions. A D1 licence under "grandfathers' rights" does not include towing a trailer exceeding 750 kg. which will require a D1 + E rating. Whilst "grandfathers' rights" exist it is now 8 years ago so a lot of caravanners are, or will be, involved for whom this way out does not exist. There is no way you can get "just" 1 kg uprating, be logical! Any large increase in G.V.W will reduce the train weight as there is a limit to what a vehicle can move. I did not include motor homes in my resume as, presumably, most people are referring to towing a caravan with an "uprated" car or dual purpose vehicle. Dotting "Is" and crossing "Ts" is, obviously, a prerequisite of any technical submission to this website as many experts appear to be waiting to pounce!!! I still say "is it worth it?"

[Doc]

beejay et al., I and others are not particularly 'waiting to pounce', but trying to make sure that, certainly for things that have a 'legal' implication, we get things as 'right', as we can.

Now just to give a bit of background as to why I posted about up-rating GVW, in the first place.

It first came to my immediate attention through an article by John Wickersham in this month's CC mag, in which explains how and why he had the GVW of a 'motorhome' he was building up-rated to 3850kg.

Now to me, this 'GVW up-rating' seemed a far more immediate and viable propostion for legally towing a 2.5m wide 'van in UK, than trying to get the UK law changed in line with that on the continent.

So I e-mailed the company that he used http://www.tvac.co.uk/van-and-light-truck-conversions/motorhome.asp for details.

I got no reply, so I telephoned for information and they just sent back a list of suitable commercial van/truck/chassis which they up-rate. There is a list for motorhomes, I think, on the website.

What I'd asked for in the e-mail (to which I had no reply) was the possibility of up-rating other vehicles like Discos and other large 4x4's etc, (new and s/h) by a small amount to get them over 3500kgs, purely to allow them to tow a 2.5m wide 'van, rather than to increase the GVW by a large (useful) amount.

They haven't adressed this 'possibility' so I think I'll need to write a letter spelling out why a small GVW up-rate (to just over 3500kgs) would be of such interest to a fairly wide group of caravanners.

If they get a number of such enquiries from the likes of us they might just think that there's a market out there for these small GVW up-rates.

Such vehicles, like motorhomes, would still be classed as 'passenger' vehicles.

'Twas just an idea of a possible way by which we could legally tow 2.5m wide 'vans. It could be a non-starter, but the more interest they get then . . . . you never know.

[beejay]

Doc
It is a non starter. There is no way that you can achieve a "small" increase in G.V.W. As I have already said you are into commercial category and tachos once 3500kg is passed and it is no longer a "passenger" vehicle ( i.e. car) as there is no longer a "heavy motor car" category. There are no "grandfathers' rights" for a multi seater minibus if the trailer exceeds 750kg , it requires a D1 + E licence. So, no financially viable conversion is possible. Motor homes are another kettle of fish, but if you wish to tow a caravan with a motor home exceeding 3500 kg you are into another world which has a very limited market and the cost of the towing vehicle compared with just a caravan is out of proportion and a C1 + E licence is needed. I often wonder how many of the motor homes towing cars are aware of the licencing requirements. Certainly, many are illegal, as towing a car in excess of 750kg (including the A frame or dolly) is illegal as it can not have brakes on ALL the trailed wheels as is required under C & E regs. But, therein lies another maze!!! If you do get a response to your enquiry, , which I doubt, please let us know. I was involved for years in chassis conversions which are very expensive as they involve legal requirements, re-plating and a host of other matters, all of which cost money. Unless there is a large order from a commercial organisation, from which a financial commitment is guaranteed, nobody will be interested. If there was a market for an uprated 4 x4 (and it would have to be a van or 4 x 4 to exceed 3500 kg G.V.W.) to tow caravans in excess of 2.3 metres I think somebody would have offered a solution. My advice, don't hold your breath!

[PETERA]

Hi Beejay,

Your last post prompted me to have a look at my licence. I have only past a test on a motorbike (not much good for towing), and a car.
I have a C1+E, which as I understand is for 3500-7500 with a trailer over 750kg, with GTW of 8250. It would appear that I have the same for D1+E. Have I missed something or do I have grandfathers rights?

The tests were passed in the middle ages (1964/65).

You obviously know a lot about this subject, and I know nuffing, but could you not get a 3500 transit re-plated to 3501 as there must be a reasonable safety margin.

Pete

[3972john]

sorry bj but you are wrong again we have a small company manfacturing
a frames and they are fully braked using the vehicles own braking system
and meet all current regulations.
cheers john

[3972john]

sorry bj but you are wrong again we have a small company manfacturing
a frames and they are fully braked using the vehicles own braking system
and meet all current regulations.
cheers john

[Big Bri]

Sorry 3972john,

You are wrong. The legal definition of a trailer is "any vehicle being towed behind another vehicle".

This means that a car being towed is a "trailer". It must therefore meet the Construction & Use Regulations 1986 and amending regulations. This states that the brakes on a trailer must meet European Directive 71/320/EC and that, in turn, states that for trailers with a gross vehicle weight of up to 3500kg that the brakes must be of the overrun type with automatic reversing system. A car's brakes do not meet this directive so are illegal.

Motorhomes towing a car using an A frame are breaking the law but it is up to the police and the crown prosecution service to take legal action. They do not usually bother in this country but certainly do abroad.

You can use an A frame legally to recover a broken down vehicle and move it to a place of safety, [b]but only with a recovery vehicle that is taxed and registered as such. You cannot transport a vehicle using an A frame even with an accident recovery vehicle.[/b] That is why all the recovery people AA, RAC etc changed to beaver tail trucks to transport vehicles.

By the way how do you mount the A frames to the car? If you have a permanent bolt on section then you are possibly changing the car's crumple zone properties and if airbags are fitted and a small accident occurs when the car is being driven normally the airbag deceleration sensor can be triggered and the airbag can be activated at low speeds when it would not have come on normally.

I look forward to hearing how your A frame overcomes the C & U regulations in these respects.

[Hobbynut]

It appears that Petera has found that he does have grandfather rights to the categories C1..C1E and D1...D1E and this of course absolutely right. This is because he passed his Cat B car test prior to 1st January 1997. I also have the same categories since I passed my car test in 1969. I use my D1E entitlement to pull my Hobby 710 using a new Ford Transit 17 seater minibus. The main factors are that 1. it only has 16 passenger seats. 2. the total weight of minibus and trailer does not exceed 12000kgs 3. the MAM ( Gross Vehicle Weight ) of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle. 4. I am not using this for the purpose of Hire or Reward. The laws in this country seem to be far more complex than they need to be, so its hardly surprising that the police don't seem to have much idea.
Hobbynut

[beejay]

Sorry, sorry, sorry.
I got carried away with my "grandfathers' rights" and did not triple check what I had written. D1 + E is automatic with a licence obtained before 1997. On the subject of motorhomes towing cars it IS a requirement that ALL the wheels of the trailer are braked and this also applies to dollies and A frames. Although the wheels of a dolly may be braked (with or without an autoreversing system) the rear wheels of the towed car are not and, therefore, it does not meet the regs. AFAIK A frames do not provide any braking to the towed car BUT seeing the earlier post I await the specification of the A frame quoted. I followed an outfit with an" A framed " car the other day on which the normal indicators, brake lights and rear lights on the towed car were operated in conjunction with the towing vehicle. New one on me, don't know what the braking system was but the electrics must be complicated! Or is this the unit referred to in the earlier post and it has a full braking system operating on the towed car?